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	<title>Comments on: Jim Mann on carbohydrate quality</title>
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		<title>By: George Henderson</title>
		<link>http://scepticalnutritionist.com.au/?p=1069#comment-3033</link>
		<dc:creator>George Henderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2014 01:51:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scepticalnutritionist.com.au/?p=1069#comment-3033</guid>
		<description>This is a good discussion of Jim Mann&#039;s presentation. I&#039;m reminded of dietary advice for type 2 diabetes from the days before insulin, which was basically to take out all starchy food and replace it with fibrous vegetables, leaving protein and (usually) fat intakes as they were. 
If you have time, Bertha M. Wood&#039;s &quot;Foods of the Foreign-born in Relation to Health&quot; from 1922 (link below) has fascinating instructions about how to adapt the diets of US immigrant communities so that they&#039;re suitable for diabetics. A bit soft on sugar for some reason, but maybe there wasn&#039;t much around.
https://archive.org/details/cu31924003579756</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a good discussion of Jim Mann&#8217;s presentation. I&#8217;m reminded of dietary advice for type 2 diabetes from the days before insulin, which was basically to take out all starchy food and replace it with fibrous vegetables, leaving protein and (usually) fat intakes as they were.<br />
If you have time, Bertha M. Wood&#8217;s &#8220;Foods of the Foreign-born in Relation to Health&#8221; from 1922 (link below) has fascinating instructions about how to adapt the diets of US immigrant communities so that they&#8217;re suitable for diabetics. A bit soft on sugar for some reason, but maybe there wasn&#8217;t much around.<br />
<a href="https://archive.org/details/cu31924003579756" rel="nofollow">https://archive.org/details/cu31924003579756</a></p>
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		<title>By: Bill Shrapnel</title>
		<link>http://scepticalnutritionist.com.au/?p=1069#comment-1994</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Shrapnel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Nov 2013 05:08:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scepticalnutritionist.com.au/?p=1069#comment-1994</guid>
		<description>Hi Katie. I think you have highlighted the problem. Some definitions of wholegrains include foods in which the starch has been disrupted, which is not the sort of wholegrains Prof Mann encourages. 
My approach to fruit may be different to other nutritionists. To me, most fruit has low GI (tick), contains fibre (tick), and other nutrients (tick). But whether a fruit is rich in sugar or starch is immaterial to me. How does a fruit&#039;s sugar/starch make-up affect its nutrition/health effects? Regards, Bill</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Katie. I think you have highlighted the problem. Some definitions of wholegrains include foods in which the starch has been disrupted, which is not the sort of wholegrains Prof Mann encourages.<br />
My approach to fruit may be different to other nutritionists. To me, most fruit has low GI (tick), contains fibre (tick), and other nutrients (tick). But whether a fruit is rich in sugar or starch is immaterial to me. How does a fruit&#8217;s sugar/starch make-up affect its nutrition/health effects? Regards, Bill</p>
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		<title>By: Katie</title>
		<link>http://scepticalnutritionist.com.au/?p=1069#comment-1993</link>
		<dc:creator>Katie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Nov 2013 01:28:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scepticalnutritionist.com.au/?p=1069#comment-1993</guid>
		<description>Hi Bill,

Could we get a definition of what a proper wholegrain product is? Are we talking food that literally has a WHOLE GRAIN visible in it?

And could you also explain where fruit falls into this picture of diabetes and sugar vs starch?

Thank you! Absolutely love reading your blog :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Bill,</p>
<p>Could we get a definition of what a proper wholegrain product is? Are we talking food that literally has a WHOLE GRAIN visible in it?</p>
<p>And could you also explain where fruit falls into this picture of diabetes and sugar vs starch?</p>
<p>Thank you! Absolutely love reading your blog <img src='http://scepticalnutritionist.com.au/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Bill Shrapnel</title>
		<link>http://scepticalnutritionist.com.au/?p=1069#comment-1976</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Shrapnel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Nov 2013 01:30:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scepticalnutritionist.com.au/?p=1069#comment-1976</guid>
		<description>Thanks Ashlea. The principles of healthy eating are pretty simple - eat a variety of food groups; make healthy choices within those food groups; don&#039;t eat too much. But people are seldom presented with this simple message for all the reasons that you mention. It makes our job a difficult one but if we don&#039;t do it, who will? So we persevere! Regards, Bill</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Ashlea. The principles of healthy eating are pretty simple &#8211; eat a variety of food groups; make healthy choices within those food groups; don&#8217;t eat too much. But people are seldom presented with this simple message for all the reasons that you mention. It makes our job a difficult one but if we don&#8217;t do it, who will? So we persevere! Regards, Bill</p>
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		<title>By: Ashlea</title>
		<link>http://scepticalnutritionist.com.au/?p=1069#comment-1969</link>
		<dc:creator>Ashlea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Nov 2013 22:34:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scepticalnutritionist.com.au/?p=1069#comment-1969</guid>
		<description>Bill as a GP I very much welcome your blog. I think it is quite common knowledge that we are not winning with the obesity epidemic. There are so many factors at play that are outside of even diet specifically sedentary behaviours and &#039;screen time&#039; with evidence linking screen time in children as an independent cardiovascular risk factor. http://adc.bmj.com/content/97/11/935.extract?sid=ad65e98b-5c4a-4077-a6f8-d1706b381b4b

What frustrates me as a doctor is people trying to find a &#039;quick fix&#039; for their diet and vilify either carbohydrates or fats. As we health professionals know, low quality carbs (I.e refined rices/pastas/sugars) and low quality fats (trans/sats) are worse than their counterparts and there is benefit it &#039;switching&#039; those aspects. 

Portion control is probably a major contributor. People seem to have warped concepts of what &#039;one serve&#039; of carbohydrate is. Actually surprisingly small and often patients are shocked when I describe &#039;servings sizes&#039;

However we seem to not be able to escape marketing. The florid marketing of fish oils in tablet form once omega 3/6&#039;s were being studied is a prime example even though since then taking fish oil supplements has not shown to change CVD risk. 
Subsequently I am now seeing many more whole grain products on our shelves (welcomed).

Something which is mostly ignored in he recent catalyst/fat vs sugar debates is the role of whole vegetables and fruits. 
The australian dietary guidelines (which also advocate true whole grains) suggest 5 serves of vegetables and 2 serves of fruit a day. The current Australian population eats 2-3 serves of vegetables a day. 

More and more we see &#039;vitamins/mineral supplements&#039; when data suggests that these on their own can be harmful - that it is the whole composition of a food that seems to be more important. 

Try to increase the quantity and quality and range of vegetables in the diet and subsequently the proportion of food that comes from carbs/fats is diminished. 

We haven&#039;t taught our population to cook and we haven&#039;t taught our population to be active enough. We are bringing up our children in an environment of instant gratification which includes quick fixes for diet/food. 

Healthy eating and a healthy lifestyle takes effort. The first intervention for ANYONE presenting to me with a risk factor for heart disease is diet and exercise. People only here what they want to here. People prefer a quick fix pill than to change their diet and lifestyle.

Link to pictorial of Aus diet guidelines: https://www.eatforhealth.gov.au/sites/default/files/files/the_guidelines/N55_A4_DG_AGTHE_HiRes.pdf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill as a GP I very much welcome your blog. I think it is quite common knowledge that we are not winning with the obesity epidemic. There are so many factors at play that are outside of even diet specifically sedentary behaviours and &#8216;screen time&#8217; with evidence linking screen time in children as an independent cardiovascular risk factor. <a href="http://adc.bmj.com/content/97/11/935.extract?sid=ad65e98b-5c4a-4077-a6f8-d1706b381b4b" rel="nofollow">http://adc.bmj.com/content/97/11/935.extract?sid=ad65e98b-5c4a-4077-a6f8-d1706b381b4b</a></p>
<p>What frustrates me as a doctor is people trying to find a &#8216;quick fix&#8217; for their diet and vilify either carbohydrates or fats. As we health professionals know, low quality carbs (I.e refined rices/pastas/sugars) and low quality fats (trans/sats) are worse than their counterparts and there is benefit it &#8216;switching&#8217; those aspects. </p>
<p>Portion control is probably a major contributor. People seem to have warped concepts of what &#8216;one serve&#8217; of carbohydrate is. Actually surprisingly small and often patients are shocked when I describe &#8216;servings sizes&#8217;</p>
<p>However we seem to not be able to escape marketing. The florid marketing of fish oils in tablet form once omega 3/6&#8242;s were being studied is a prime example even though since then taking fish oil supplements has not shown to change CVD risk.<br />
Subsequently I am now seeing many more whole grain products on our shelves (welcomed).</p>
<p>Something which is mostly ignored in he recent catalyst/fat vs sugar debates is the role of whole vegetables and fruits.<br />
The australian dietary guidelines (which also advocate true whole grains) suggest 5 serves of vegetables and 2 serves of fruit a day. The current Australian population eats 2-3 serves of vegetables a day. </p>
<p>More and more we see &#8216;vitamins/mineral supplements&#8217; when data suggests that these on their own can be harmful &#8211; that it is the whole composition of a food that seems to be more important. </p>
<p>Try to increase the quantity and quality and range of vegetables in the diet and subsequently the proportion of food that comes from carbs/fats is diminished. </p>
<p>We haven&#8217;t taught our population to cook and we haven&#8217;t taught our population to be active enough. We are bringing up our children in an environment of instant gratification which includes quick fixes for diet/food. </p>
<p>Healthy eating and a healthy lifestyle takes effort. The first intervention for ANYONE presenting to me with a risk factor for heart disease is diet and exercise. People only here what they want to here. People prefer a quick fix pill than to change their diet and lifestyle.</p>
<p>Link to pictorial of Aus diet guidelines: <a href="https://www.eatforhealth.gov.au/sites/default/files/files/the_guidelines/N55_A4_DG_AGTHE_HiRes.pdf" rel="nofollow">https://www.eatforhealth.gov.au/sites/default/files/files/the_guidelines/N55_A4_DG_AGTHE_HiRes.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: Kate</title>
		<link>http://scepticalnutritionist.com.au/?p=1069#comment-1664</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Oct 2013 12:15:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scepticalnutritionist.com.au/?p=1069#comment-1664</guid>
		<description>Its not really &quot;no carbs&quot; then, but rather &quot;no desserts&quot;. I think being accurate with labeling is really important.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Its not really &#8220;no carbs&#8221; then, but rather &#8220;no desserts&#8221;. I think being accurate with labeling is really important.</p>
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		<title>By: Elizabeth</title>
		<link>http://scepticalnutritionist.com.au/?p=1069#comment-1662</link>
		<dc:creator>Elizabeth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Oct 2013 03:39:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scepticalnutritionist.com.au/?p=1069#comment-1662</guid>
		<description>Jim Mann and his research colleagues ( see www.otago.ac.nz/diabetes/research)  have researched the diabetic diet extensively with a number of intervention studies,  including publications on sugar. see Dietary sugars and body weight: systematic review and meta-analyses of randomised controlled trials and cohort studies.  Lisa Te Morenga, Simonette Mallard, Jim Mann.  BMJ 2013; 346

In regard to carbohydrate I think Jim Mann&#039;s conclusions are the take home message. 
Professor Mann came to the following conclusions:
• A wide range of carbohydrate intakes is still acceptable, between 40-60% energy
• Legumes, pulses, fruits and ‘genuine’ wholegrains were optimal choices among carbohydrate-rich foods
• Dietary fibre was a good indicator of a healthy choice
• Rapidly digested starchy vegetables (such as potato), white rice and many breads should be limited, even some breads labelled wholegrain.

It is not just about % energy from CHO but the types of CHO foods chosen. Those less processed, more intact CHO foods are better and education on how to eat them in the right amount in a mixed meal can further lower GI with good clinical outcomes beyond weight. Their intervention study LOADD (Lifestyle Over and Above Drugs in Diabetes) support the acceptable range for CHO intake and this should be individualized for each person. Unfortunately the carbohydrate information given sometimes is only the GI information, without understanding how to apply this information. Very often people think it is a allowed/not allowed list of foods and those with a low GI can be eaten ad libitum. That is why good dietary advice is important.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim Mann and his research colleagues ( see <a href="http://www.otago.ac.nz/diabetes/research" rel="nofollow">http://www.otago.ac.nz/diabetes/research</a>)  have researched the diabetic diet extensively with a number of intervention studies,  including publications on sugar. see Dietary sugars and body weight: systematic review and meta-analyses of randomised controlled trials and cohort studies.  Lisa Te Morenga, Simonette Mallard, Jim Mann.  BMJ 2013; 346</p>
<p>In regard to carbohydrate I think Jim Mann&#8217;s conclusions are the take home message.<br />
Professor Mann came to the following conclusions:<br />
• A wide range of carbohydrate intakes is still acceptable, between 40-60% energy<br />
• Legumes, pulses, fruits and ‘genuine’ wholegrains were optimal choices among carbohydrate-rich foods<br />
• Dietary fibre was a good indicator of a healthy choice<br />
• Rapidly digested starchy vegetables (such as potato), white rice and many breads should be limited, even some breads labelled wholegrain.</p>
<p>It is not just about % energy from CHO but the types of CHO foods chosen. Those less processed, more intact CHO foods are better and education on how to eat them in the right amount in a mixed meal can further lower GI with good clinical outcomes beyond weight. Their intervention study LOADD (Lifestyle Over and Above Drugs in Diabetes) support the acceptable range for CHO intake and this should be individualized for each person. Unfortunately the carbohydrate information given sometimes is only the GI information, without understanding how to apply this information. Very often people think it is a allowed/not allowed list of foods and those with a low GI can be eaten ad libitum. That is why good dietary advice is important.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew P</title>
		<link>http://scepticalnutritionist.com.au/?p=1069#comment-1661</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew P</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Oct 2013 02:12:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scepticalnutritionist.com.au/?p=1069#comment-1661</guid>
		<description>Perhaps the existing authorities are working with/against the existing problematic diets, and this is why the advice would appear so bad compared to what is optimal.

If someone&#039;s regular breakfast is jam on toast, they&#039;re getting 3 tablespoons worth of sugar and 4 peices of white bread and a tablespoon of butter. 
With advice of &quot;eat wholegrain bread and avoid sugar&quot;, you might convince them to have wholegrain toast with bananas (or nutella for some reason people think its healthy?) or a bowl of oats or something instead. Sub-optimal results, but you&#039;re actually getting a step in the &#039;right direction&#039;?

The same way that I have found &quot;no carbs after 6pm&quot; gets a positive result for weightloss, despite limited/no sound scientific basis, because people will just drop the habit of pastries or ice cream during TV time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps the existing authorities are working with/against the existing problematic diets, and this is why the advice would appear so bad compared to what is optimal.</p>
<p>If someone&#8217;s regular breakfast is jam on toast, they&#8217;re getting 3 tablespoons worth of sugar and 4 peices of white bread and a tablespoon of butter.<br />
With advice of &#8220;eat wholegrain bread and avoid sugar&#8221;, you might convince them to have wholegrain toast with bananas (or nutella for some reason people think its healthy?) or a bowl of oats or something instead. Sub-optimal results, but you&#8217;re actually getting a step in the &#8216;right direction&#8217;?</p>
<p>The same way that I have found &#8220;no carbs after 6pm&#8221; gets a positive result for weightloss, despite limited/no sound scientific basis, because people will just drop the habit of pastries or ice cream during TV time.</p>
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		<title>By: Gabrielle Maston</title>
		<link>http://scepticalnutritionist.com.au/?p=1069#comment-1660</link>
		<dc:creator>Gabrielle Maston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Oct 2013 22:37:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scepticalnutritionist.com.au/?p=1069#comment-1660</guid>
		<description>I have to agree,  my biggest gripe is when patients are encouarged to consume an excessive amount of CHO typically after seeing local Gp&#039;s or diabetes educators. Trying to influence a better perspective  to eating less CHO for better BSL control is sometimes difficult after they have been advised other wise. I Also agree regarding the bread comments, some breads labeled &quot;wholegrain&quot; are almost as white as their white loaf neighbours and a huge difference to eating the real deal, or eating legumes (which is also a difficult food item to get clients eating!) . Keep up the great posts :)
Gabrielle Maston
Dietitian &amp; Exercise physiologist</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to agree,  my biggest gripe is when patients are encouarged to consume an excessive amount of CHO typically after seeing local Gp&#8217;s or diabetes educators. Trying to influence a better perspective  to eating less CHO for better BSL control is sometimes difficult after they have been advised other wise. I Also agree regarding the bread comments, some breads labeled &#8220;wholegrain&#8221; are almost as white as their white loaf neighbours and a huge difference to eating the real deal, or eating legumes (which is also a difficult food item to get clients eating!) . Keep up the great posts <img src='http://scepticalnutritionist.com.au/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
Gabrielle Maston<br />
Dietitian &amp; Exercise physiologist</p>
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